Come back to me, Gongyla, here tonight,
You, my rose, with your Lydian lyre.
There hovers forever around you delight:
A beauty desired.
Even your garment plunders my eyes.
I am enchanted: I who once
Complained to the Cyprus-born goddess,
Whom I now beseech
Never to let this lose me grace
But rather bring you back to me:
Amongst all mortal women the one
I most wish to see...
--Sappho of Lesbos
Was Gongyla a deceased and therefore unattainable former lover of Sappho? And are unattainable women (Lesbians) sexy "ideals" and/or objects of what Renaissance men termed a "courtly love" for Greek heroes?
ReplyDeleteI don't know the answer to either question.
ReplyDeleteIt must be extremely painful to desire someone THAT unattainable.
I suspect that THAT is also part of the point...
ReplyDeleteA guard/test of strength of resolve to fortify the will.
ReplyDeleteAh. So that is an element of "courtly love" that I never understood.
ReplyDeleteTo that I say "Bullshit!"
I find the entire concept extremely offensive.
Then you should also find the concepts of "refinement" of attempting to seek "perfection" offensive as well. Just accept who you are, and don't try and become anything "greater" than what you currently are.
ReplyDeleteIMO, the whole point of the cult of Aphrodite and Sappho's poetry is to learn how to sublimate sexual desire and thereby achieve immortality. To transfer the love of past sexual and romantic pleasures into a force for overcoming future immediate pains to achieving some future (and yet impossible) goal, immortality... in the form of something that benefits future generations of mankind (which then retains a memory of your name/struggle).
Sappho's poetry is an exhortation to "dream"... and use those dreams to change the future.
ReplyDeleteSo enjoy life's pleasure, and employ your memories of them to bettering the world.
ReplyDeleteGreatness doesn't come from "abstinence" and/or "asceticism". It comes from having lived a full life. Someone who has loved greatly and lost his/her love can achieve things that one who has not, cannot.
ReplyDeleteThis is why Nietzsche says things like:
"The highest man would have the greatest multiplicity of drives, in the relatively greatest strength that can be endured. Indeed, where the plant "man" shows himself strongest one finds instincts that conflict powerfully (e.g., in Shakespeare), but are controlled." -WtP 966
...so Sappho uses her memory of a past love to create poetry that has survived 2,600 intervening years.
ReplyDelete...and it's not that she writes about past lovers that makes her poetry immortal. It's that's she's also sharing/transferring this "technique" for achieving immortality to others.
ReplyDeleteI understand all of this, and I agree. The aspect that I find offensive is using another to fortify one's will.
ReplyDeleteIt's objectification without reciprocation.
When one person is used for another's own purposes WITHOUT reciprocity or some giving of self in return, that's basically pornography.
No, I think that "courtly love" differs in the need for the practitioner to have a "witness" to one's deeds... whereas the cult of Kypris only requires a self-witness.
ReplyDeleteIt's like this... if a tree fell in a forest and no one saw it fall, would it make a sound? It's more of a question of "existence" and wanting to "exist" through a witness.
For some people (the stronger), no witness is required. Or in the case of the Greeks, the "witnesses" had only to be the gods.
And in Nietzsche's case, the "witness" is a reader 100 years later.
ReplyDeleteAnd in the Overman's case, NO WITNESS AT ALL. Perfect Anonymity.
There used to be a saying about men... that there were three kinds who went to the Olympic games. Those who came to compete, those who came to buy/sell, and those who came to watch.
ReplyDeleteNow imagine one who comes to compete with no one in the stands watching, not even the gods.
Think of it this way, you can make a donation to a good cause in order for others to recognize you, or you can do it anonymously. One contribution is self-serving, and the other, pure "grace".
ReplyDelete...even if a little "mental pornography" got you to the point of ability to contribute "gracefully".
ReplyDeleteA "generation from opposites."
ReplyDeleteA new "whole" that is greater than the sum of its' individual parts.
ReplyDeleteModern Christians aren't much different than the Greeks in that sense...with God being the only witness. At least, He should be the only witness, most of the time.
ReplyDeleteStill, there is something very user-y about having this witness, for the sake of having a witness. Where does the witness benefit?
Perhaps I'm just....more of a reciprocal kind of person.
When I think of the athelte with nobody in the stands, I can't fathom it. I'm so much weaker than I realize.
...a "surpassing" of self...
ReplyDeleteIf you've got a better way, I'd like to hear it.
Many there are who would sacrifice for "future posterity" or for their descendants. But how many would do so for an ideal of a better mankind but receive complete obscurity for your efforts... like you never even existed?
ReplyDeleteDon Quixote w/o Sancho Panza.
ReplyDelete...w/o Dulcinea.
ReplyDeleteAs dependable as the sunrise.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of what to write as you wrote those last few remarks, and it looks like we both touched on serving anonymously. with grace.
ReplyDeleteI don't see the connection between mental pornography and donating anonymously.
Are you saying that by giving anonymously, I experience the gratification of giving, but the witness (other) doesn't experience the gratification of acknowledging me, therefore pornification? ehhh? that's a stretch.
I see it this way.
I give anonymously and deny myself the natural desire to be acknowledged. In this way, it is asceticism.
Hmmm...I guess you're saying that my personal knowledge of the act is enough to outweigh the lack of other-acknowledgement. ??
...w/o G_d or gods.
ReplyDeleteLike Eos on golden sandals.
What you're postulating is either complete lonliness or complete completeness. :-)
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be changing, growing. Or maybe it's me. I think it's you, too. Do you?
ReplyDeleteEvery person who donates (even anonymously) receives a "feeling of his greater power".
ReplyDeleteOf course, many donations can also do more harm than good (to the receiver in encouraging a morally hazardous behavior).
wait! You're saying it's morally hazardous to give anonymously??
ReplyDeleteOf course, many donations can also do more harm than good (to the receiver in encouraging a morally hazardous behavior).
ReplyDeleteexample?
Mercy and grace stem from this feeling of greater power... it's "fruits".
ReplyDelete...it encourages dependency.
ReplyDeleteNo I'm saying it's morally hazardous to receive a gift, even an anonymous one.
ReplyDeleteAnd those are good things.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be changing, growing. Or maybe it's me. I think it's you, too. Do you?
ReplyDeleteIsn't that the point of writing out and discussing your thoughts?
Consider this: if you never recieve a gift, you deny the giver the joy of expressing their love.
ReplyDeleteIf I allow my friend to help me with my children when I'm sick, I allow her the experience of grace AND I experience it in return, in humility. It's not always about power. Actually, there is power in humility.
It only encourages dependency if you're not tending to yourself to begin with.
ReplyDeleteAnd so what if we fall into dependency from time to time? Can we not be shaken out of it? Awaken from it? Isn't there grace in that situation, too? The goal isn't perfection.
Isn't that the point of writing out and discussing your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteYes! :-)
I was trying to encourage you.
Actually, there is power in humility.
ReplyDeleteBut those who rely entirely upon charity become resentful over time. They actually try and impart pain/"guilt" to the givers for not doing "more". THAT makes THEM feel more powerful, knowing that they have the power to "hurt" others.
And so what if we fall into dependency from time to time?
ReplyDeleteA good thing, likely. It demonstrates the weaknesses we need to work on and surpass
But those who rely entirely upon charity become resentful over time. They actually try and impart pain/"guilt" to the givers for not doing "more". THAT makes THEM feel more powerful, knowing that they have the power to "hurt" others.
ReplyDelete----------
okay, are you talking on a political or socio/economic level now? I'm talking interpersonal. I see your point. I see how this cycle goes round and round. It's difficult to translate personal grace / humility to a social program.
okay, are you talking on a political or socio/economic level now? I was thinking of "professional beggars" and a Fagin/ARtful Dodger predatory underworld.
ReplyDeleteI was trying to encourage you.
ReplyDelete...and it's working. :)
Exactly. I see it this way. It's a swaying motion, coming together, then pushing apart. It's never static...it can't be.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I see it this way. It's a swaying motion, coming together, then pushing apart. It's never static...it can't be.
ReplyDeleteRight. Heraclitus' river. Never the same, eddies here and there, whirlpools...
...and we're in a boat between Charbydis and Scylla. ;)
ReplyDeleteRight. Heraclitus' river. Never the same, eddies here and there, whirlpools...
ReplyDelete---
One of my favorites. I love this, it was so freeing for me. Thank you, Heraclitus!
whirlpools filled with past memories and regrets that such us backward and future insurmountable obstacles and/or impractical desires.
ReplyDeleteI was trying to encourage you.
ReplyDelete...and it's working. :)
good! I'm glad to know it.
...and Sappho, for sharing her thoughts and techniques!
ReplyDeletewhirlpools filled with past memories and regrets that such us backward and future insurmountable obstacles and/or impractical desires.
ReplyDelete---------
well, I don't think that anything is impractical. (Turns out I'm not a big William James fan ;-)
aterall, there is all of that "life fully lived" business...
ReplyDeleteYes, I read James' "Varieties of Religious Experiences"... I'm not a big fan either.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoy writing with you.
ReplyDeletegotta go now and tend to my garden! ;-)
A noble enterprise indeed. Ciao. :)
ReplyDelete