All alone a sweet apple reddens on the topmost branch, high on the highest branch, the apple pickers did not notice it, they did not truly forget it, but they could not reach it.
Filled is Life's goblet to the brim; And though my eyes with tears are dim, I see its sparkling bubbles swim, And chant a melancholy hymn With solemn voice and slow.
No purple flowers,--no garlands green, Conceal the goblet's shade or sheen, Nor maddening draughts of Hippocrene, Like gleams of sunshine, flash between Thick leaves of mistletoe.
This goblet, wrought with curious art, Is filled with waters, that upstart, When the deep fountains of the heart, By strong convulsions rent apart, Are running all to waste.
And as it mantling passes round, With fennel is it wreathed and crowned, Whose seed and foliage sun-imbrowned Are in its waters steeped and drowned, And give a bitter taste.
Above the lowly plants it towers, The fennel, with its yellow flowers, And in an earlier age than ours Was gifted with the wondrous powers, Lost vision to restore.
It gave new strength, and fearless mood; And gladiators, fierce and rude, Mingled it in their daily food; And he who battled and subdued, A wreath of fennel wore.
Then in Life's goblet freely press, The leaves that give it bitterness, Nor prize the colored waters less, For in thy darkness and distress New light and strength they give!
And he who has not learned to know How false its sparkling buhbles show, How bitter are the drops of woe, With which its brim may overflow, He has not learned to live.
The prayer of Ajax was for light; Through all that dark and desperate fight The blackness of that noonday night He asked but the return of sight, To see his foeman's face.
Let our unceasing, earnest prayer Be, too, for light,--for strength to bear Our portion of the weight of care, That crushes into dumb despair One half the human race.
O suffering, sad humanity! O ye afflicted one; who lie Steeped to the lips in misery, Longing, and yet afraid to die, Patient, though sorely tried !
I pledge you in this cup of grief, Where floats the fennel's bitter leaf ! The Battle of our Life is briet The alarm,--the struggle,--the relief, Then sleep we side by side.
...I wonder if she meant a cherry and not an apple. And not: nobody could pick it, but nobody could pop it. :)
...but, jokes apart (and the joke was in bad taste, I realize), what could she mean by it? Does the apple signify the feminine aspect of knowledge? And how it has been ignored, nay, is even unattainable perhaps - to us men? Could it even be "forbidden" to us somehow? Any suggestions?
None that you haven't already touched upon... perhaps something to keep tantalizing Tantalus... and prevent Lessing's son from exersizing his "most rational" alternative.
More than forbidden, I think it's kept in a place for safe keeping. One can access it by being with another, empathizing, surpassing one's self by opening up to the other and giving them space to BE.
The whole is always greater than the sum of its' parts. But then the "whole" is merely a paranoic critical vision... it's not really there... is it? It's just an unreachable "imagining"...
The whole is always greater than the sum of its' parts. But then the "whole" is merely a paranoic critical vision... it's not really there... is it? It's just an unreachable "imagining"... ----------
This seems so pessimistic to me. Plus, it seems to go against Freud's argument that we should seek the herd mentality, to fit in and belong. I agree that the whole is greater than the sum of its' parts, but I don't agree that it's an imagining. Would you substitute the word "illusion"? That's even more pessimistic.
Jung argues for individuation. I tend to question if it's even possible. If we have generation from opposites, find security and a sense of belonging in the pack, then why is that an imagining? If the others invest in us, and we in them, what's artificial about that? If you're completely skeptical, you might say that it's too easy to abandon the investiment, therefore it's an illusion. But I say that we abandon ourselves just as easily and probably more often.
While self-reliance is something to strive for, I don't think it's good to not invest in others and allow it in return. How else can you benefit future generations if you're shut off?
The comment about FGM listening to oneself makes very little sense to me. If you're alluding to repression, that's a ridiculous argument.
If you knew anything about women, you'd know that we are not like men when it comes to sexual repression. If I need to explain this to you further I will.
I understand 3 stages in the mental development of man. The un-repressed "wild/un-tamed" man. The blond-beast externally repressed "cultured" man. And the completely internally repressed "civilized/tamed" man.
Now it's much easier for "civilized" men to invest in the "others" of their civilization, and theirs a large pay-off from the division of labour. But when a segment of the civilized world seeks to institute a "counter-culture", then the investment pay-off diminishes substantially. For this necessitates a larger investment in police forces (that can be characterized as a "disciplinary/control society") to externally repress those which fall within the culture's boundaries, as the people are less self-repressing.
Now is this internal source of repression that allows a "civilized" man to be self-controlled and trustworthy of group "others" something "real" or is it more imagining/ illusion? It's certainly a form of behavioral imprinting.
So what do we do with those who fail to "imprint" properly? We allow our "disciplinary society" to manage the outliers and remove/ segregate them from society (but not punish). But perhaps that "punishment" is the necessary ingredient in "forcing" a behavioral change? Is it "wise" then to not punish?
If nothing else, we all know that civilizations decline and fall. And out of those ashes of barbarism and chaos, new orders emerge. And Ixion's wheel takes another spin.
The comment about FGM listening to oneself makes very little sense to me ... If If you knew anything about women, you'd know that we are not like men when it comes to sexual repression. If I need to explain this to you further I will.
...I didn't mean anything of the sort. But no matter. :)
The Goblet of Life by Longfellow (reprised)
ReplyDeleteFilled is Life's goblet to the brim;
And though my eyes with tears are dim,
I see its sparkling bubbles swim,
And chant a melancholy hymn
With solemn voice and slow.
No purple flowers,--no garlands green,
Conceal the goblet's shade or sheen,
Nor maddening draughts of Hippocrene,
Like gleams of sunshine, flash between
Thick leaves of mistletoe.
This goblet, wrought with curious art,
Is filled with waters, that upstart,
When the deep fountains of the heart,
By strong convulsions rent apart,
Are running all to waste.
And as it mantling passes round,
With fennel is it wreathed and crowned,
Whose seed and foliage sun-imbrowned
Are in its waters steeped and drowned,
And give a bitter taste.
Above the lowly plants it towers,
The fennel, with its yellow flowers,
And in an earlier age than ours
Was gifted with the wondrous powers,
Lost vision to restore.
It gave new strength, and fearless mood;
And gladiators, fierce and rude,
Mingled it in their daily food;
And he who battled and subdued,
A wreath of fennel wore.
Then in Life's goblet freely press,
The leaves that give it bitterness,
Nor prize the colored waters less,
For in thy darkness and distress
New light and strength they give!
And he who has not learned to know
How false its sparkling buhbles show,
How bitter are the drops of woe,
With which its brim may overflow,
He has not learned to live.
The prayer of Ajax was for light;
Through all that dark and desperate fight
The blackness of that noonday night
He asked but the return of sight,
To see his foeman's face.
Let our unceasing, earnest prayer
Be, too, for light,--for strength to bear
Our portion of the weight of care,
That crushes into dumb despair
One half the human race.
O suffering, sad humanity!
O ye afflicted one; who lie
Steeped to the lips in misery,
Longing, and yet afraid to die,
Patient, though sorely tried !
I pledge you in this cup of grief,
Where floats the fennel's bitter leaf !
The Battle of our Life is briet
The alarm,--the struggle,--the relief,
Then sleep we side by side.
...I wonder if she meant a cherry and not an apple. And not: nobody could pick it, but nobody could pop it. :)
ReplyDelete...but, jokes apart (and the joke was in bad taste, I realize), what could she mean by it? Does the apple signify the feminine aspect of knowledge? And how it has been ignored, nay, is even unattainable perhaps - to us men? Could it even be "forbidden" to us somehow? Any suggestions?
None that you haven't already touched upon... perhaps something to keep tantalizing Tantalus... and prevent Lessing's son from exersizing his "most rational" alternative.
ReplyDeletelol. And, yes, "tantalize" must have come from Tantalus. I had never thought of it. Thanks.
ReplyDeletemy words sicken me sometimes...
ReplyDeleteMore than forbidden, I think it's kept in a place for safe keeping. One can access it by being with another, empathizing, surpassing one's self by opening up to the other and giving them space to BE.
ReplyDeleteI think it goes both way for men and women.
...I would say, "castration is to listen to oneself." But knowing what form castration takes among women makes me uneasy.
ReplyDeleteFGM
ReplyDeleteThe whole is always greater than the sum of its' parts. But then the "whole" is merely a paranoic critical vision... it's not really there... is it? It's just an unreachable "imagining"...
ReplyDelete...candy for lessing's son? Hmm.
ReplyDeleteThe whole is always greater than the sum of its' parts. But then the "whole" is merely a paranoic critical vision... it's not really there... is it? It's just an unreachable "imagining"...
ReplyDelete----------
This seems so pessimistic to me. Plus, it seems to go against Freud's argument that we should seek the herd mentality, to fit in and belong. I agree that the whole is greater than the sum of its' parts, but I don't agree that it's an imagining. Would you substitute the word "illusion"? That's even more pessimistic.
Jung argues for individuation. I tend to question if it's even possible. If we have generation from opposites, find security and a sense of belonging in the pack, then why is that an imagining? If the others invest in us, and we in them, what's artificial about that?
If you're completely skeptical, you might say that it's too easy to abandon the investiment, therefore it's an illusion. But I say that we abandon ourselves just as easily and probably more often.
While self-reliance is something to strive for, I don't think it's good to not invest in others and allow it in return. How else can you benefit future generations if you're shut off?
It has nothing to do with "free love" or even the "wild woman within".
ReplyDeleteThe comment about FGM listening to oneself makes very little sense to me. If you're alluding to repression, that's a ridiculous argument.
ReplyDeleteIf you knew anything about women, you'd know that we are not like men when it comes to sexual repression. If I need to explain this to you further I will.
I understand 3 stages in the mental development of man. The un-repressed "wild/un-tamed" man. The blond-beast externally repressed "cultured" man. And the completely internally repressed "civilized/tamed" man.
ReplyDeleteNow it's much easier for "civilized" men to invest in the "others" of their civilization, and theirs a large pay-off from the division of labour. But when a segment of the civilized world seeks to institute a "counter-culture", then the investment pay-off diminishes substantially. For this necessitates a larger investment in police forces (that can be characterized as a "disciplinary/control society") to externally repress those which fall within the culture's boundaries, as the people are less self-repressing.
Now is this internal source of repression that allows a "civilized" man to be self-controlled and trustworthy of group "others" something "real" or is it more imagining/ illusion? It's certainly a form of behavioral imprinting.
ReplyDeleteSo what do we do with those who fail to "imprint" properly? We allow our "disciplinary society" to manage the outliers and remove/ segregate them from society (but not punish). But perhaps that "punishment" is the necessary ingredient in "forcing" a behavioral change? Is it "wise" then to not punish?
...and is the a tipping point beyond which a declining civilization cannot recover and/or restore order?
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else, we all know that civilizations decline and fall. And out of those ashes of barbarism and chaos, new orders emerge. And Ixion's wheel takes another spin.
ReplyDeleteThe comment about FGM listening to oneself makes very little sense to me ... If
ReplyDeleteIf you knew anything about women, you'd know that we are not like men when it comes to sexual repression. If I need to explain this to you further I will.
...I didn't mean anything of the sort. But no matter. :)